David Kirby now denying Hannah Poling’s mitochondrial disorder

Last Thursday, David Kirby, Deirdre Imus, and some of their antivaccinationist cohorts were in my neck of the woods to discuss the non-existent scientific controversy over whether vaccines cause autism. I would have loved to have gone but unfortunately it was held on a weekday afternoon. Apparently now Kirby is denying Hannah Poling’s mitochondrial disorder:

She was a perfectly normal girl.

Um, no. She was never a perfectly normal girl. And this is well documented. If you think she was a normal, healthy girl then you’re living in a fantasy world.

Much has been written about Hannah Poling’s mitochondrial disorder, such as here, here, here, here, and here.

And much has been written that has exposed the utter dishonesty of David Kirby, such as here and here (this second one is also included in that first list but it does both).

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15 Responses to David Kirby now denying Hannah Poling’s mitochondrial disorder

  1. Robert Krakow says:

    Dear Specabra:

    I watched the Deirdre Imus conference presentations that you reference. David Kirby did not say anything that would permit anyone to conclude that he is “denying Hannah Poling’s mitochondrial disorder.” What you fail understand and report is that prior to receiving vaccines at 19 months of age Hannah was healthy and completely asymptomatic, with no sign of mitochondrial dysfunction. Whether she was susceptible because of an asymptomatic underlying mitochondrial problem that was triggered by vaccines, or possibly that vaccines actually caused her mitochondrial dysfunction is a key question. The foregoing is not merely reported by David Kirby but is based on the front-line observer of Hannah, her parents – her attorney/nurse mother and pediatric neurologist father.

    It is they – Hannah’s parents – who have reported that she was asymptomatic, normal and fine before those 19 month vaccines. David Kirby is simply reporting the facts:prior to her 19 month vaccines Hannah showed no sign of mitochondrial dysfunction; after receiving her 19 month vaccines she srongly showed biochemial markers of mitochondrial dysfunction, including a confirming muscle biopsy, with no genetic link having been discovered.

    Rather than meaninglessly ridicule David Kirby’s statements I suggest you should respect and accurately report the facts as reported by the witnesses, so that we all may better understand what happened to Hannah, in the interest of helping other children.

    Sincerely,

    Robert J. Krakow
    Parent
    Attorney representing children with vaccine injury claims

  2. mjr256 says:

    I wasn’t there. I’m going strictly by what was reported in the article. The article quote Kirby as saying, “She was a perfectly normal girl,” referring to Poling prior to the vaccines. If that data is incorrect, please contact The Bergen Record and ask them to make a retraction. The mitochondrial disorder is genetic and so regardless of whether there were visible symptoms, she was not “a perfectly normal girl.” Appearing normal is not the same thing as being normal. That distinction is crucial to this issue. Now I think I’ve presented more than enough reliable sources for information, at least more than your zero. But thanks for advertising your conflict of interest.

  3. John Fryer says:

    In The USA mercury vaccines are given at birth or strictly speaking at the age of ONE DAY. The only time a baby would be more vulnerable to mercury vaccination would be in the womb as a foetus.

    Some mothers who have blood incompatibility with the father are given a mercury containing injection during pregnancy.

    Any analysis of cause and effect must take this into account.

    Logically a healthy baby would at age TWO DAYS if susceptible to mercury poisoning already be showing the signs of clinical destruction of their brain cells. Obviously many if not most take this toxic insult in their stride.

    We do have head circumference measurements which show a near doubling of this measurement one day after the HEP B vaccine with mercury preservative and a highly susceptible infant. These babies we know don’t become autistic. They just die, maybe not immediately but after struggling for life for days, weeks or even months.

    Vaccine makers who add mercury know you can never prove anything with absolute certainty.

    But one thing is sure: MERCURY has no place in vaccines, which is why today it is being taken out of MMR (yes it was in some MMR) and DTP (it was in many of these).

    Today we know it is still present in some vaccines and curiously those targetted at the population that is no longer in the work situation.

    A cynical person might call this incomplete euthanasia.

    A cynical CHEMIST

    John Fryer MSc BSc Analytical Chemist

  4. mjr256 says:

    False. Very few vaccines contain mercury, none of which are given at birth, so this is a false premise.

    Really? Which mercury-containing injection are you referring to?

    There are over 13 studies that take this into account.

    This is a non-sequitur. No one is denying that mercury poisoning comes from mercury. What does that have to do with autism?

    Another red herring argument that doesn’t present any case for vaccines causing autism.

    Do you even know why mercury is put in vaccines at all? Any clue? Do you know how few vaccines even carry mercury in them?

    How is that sure? Since you clearly have no idea what the mercury is used for, it is a preservative. It lengthens the shelf life of vaccines so t hey don’t expire before doctors get around to actually using them. While this is a little less important in the U.S., this is absolutely vital for when vaccines are shipped to third world nations because they desperately need the vaccines and if the vaccine expires, it is useless. Further, mercury WAS NEVER in MMR vaccines to begin with. Try again. In fact, the only vaccine on scheduled for the first 2 years that still sometimes has mercury is the RECOMMENDED flu vaccine once every 6 months.

    No, a paranoid person might call this incomplete euthanasia. An educated person who hasn’t lost their grip on reality and has actually studied history realizes that vaccines have been one of the greatest success stories in medicine.

  5. John Fryer says:

    Hi MJR

    Thanks for criticising my response and yes I do not expect to be 100 per cent right about everything if for the simple reason most people think I am probably more out on a limb than you say.

    I have carefully studied chemicals and health all my life and this does include helping to release mothers put in prison for killing their own son after coincidently he had received a mercury containing vaccine just hours before the supposed act of murder by the mother. Sally Clark was the lady – given double life in prison and no longer alive as she herself was dead at a young age. Nowhere in the trial or anywhere does a vaccine get the blame. In fact the vaccine was said on oath to increase the chance that the baby would not die. This on oath by people of the calibre of a UK professor and Knight of the Realm who was in fact reinstated into his profession when 2 out of three High Court Judges decided his evidence was fine and correct.

    The mother in question whose baby had a head expansion of nearly double for her child after the HEP B vaccine is to my knowledge now in a USA prison for murder though I am not up to date on the situation as I have lost touch with the family after they supplied the data on which I did the calculation; The increase was 91 per cent.

    As to you not knowing whether any vaccines still contain mercury and not knowing that a very few of the MMR vaccines did have mercury is not a problem of mine. Just to say most of the flu shots still do contain mercury.

    The connection between mercury poisoning and autism which you assume I am linking is again your assertion and not mine. But autism children have damaged brain cells and mercury does damage brain cells. Obviously autism would not be the only illness from such a blunt instrument and the death of the children above show the end result of this toxcity. Mercury does affect more boys than girls and this ratio is identical for autism.

    I did say you can never prove for certain mercury does cause autism but to put in vaccines mmaterials so toxic is plain daft with our knoweldge today. Would you advocate mercury in our food stuff to keep it in good condition? Today we have so many ways to preserve things safely why use a method so archaic?

  6. mjr256 says:

    You’re applying anecdotal evidence and are committing the logical fallacy of assuming association equals correlation. The symptoms of autism tend to show up within the first 2 years of life. That happens to also be a period of time in which children are most vulnerable to many life-threatening diseases that we now have vaccines to prevent against. The other fallacy here is the lottery fallacy. If enough children are diagnosed with autism, it becomes statistically likely that some of them will happen to show diagnosable signs of it close to the time of a vaccination. But for every 1 child with such a timing coincidence, there’s dozens more like my niece who shared no such timing coincidence at all as well as many children who were diagnosed with autism who have never been vaccinated at all. Of course, the party line is to then insist mercury in vaccines is but one of many other causes of autism. This is an excuse to get around the facts. And the massive purge of thimerosal in most vaccines in numerous countries has led to no noticeable decline of autism, further hitting home the reality that either thimerosa in vaccinesl is a scapegoat or it has so little an role in causing autism to make this a moot issue.

    Moreover, you have to ask yourself how accurate is the parental reporting and exactly how broad it this alleged timing coincidence? How often do you suppose a parent when prompted about their child’s last vaccine remember it being last week when it was really 2 weeks ago? How often do they remember it being 2 weeks ago when it was really 3 weeks ago? Etc. Still, yes, some (very few) parents do report this symptoms mere hours after a vaccination. Others notice signs days later. Others, weeks later. While still others, again, show no timing coincidence.

    And yes, vaccines do without any reasonable doubt increase the likelihood of a baby surviving into adulthood. This is well documented. But real science is determined in the lab and through controlled, testable, and repeatable studies. Real science is not determined in a courtroom, making this line of argument a red herring.

    No mandatory vaccines up until the age of 2 contain mercury. Some flu vaccines do contain mercury (about the amount you find in every day household table salt). This mercury has been time and time again proven to be at safe levels. If you have a legitimate source that states that MMR vaccines ever had mercury in them, please let me know the source.

    Clearly you are linking mercury poisoning and autism, so I fail to see where my assertion is. That you fail to recognize a clear distinction between autism and brain damage from mercury poisoning is a false premise. This would be like failing to distinguish between a heart attack and a bullet wound in the heart because they happen to damage the same region of the body.

    Science never closes the door to any possibility but for the most part, yes, if mercury in vaccines could cause autism, we’d be able to prove it through controlled studies by removing the mercury and watching to see if autism rates dropped. We’ve already done this numerous times now. This myth has been as debunked as any hypothesis can reasonably be debunked.

  7. John Fryer says:

    Hi MJR

    I am taking it that you are sincere in everything you say but in just the same way I can’t or anyone else can say that mercury vaccines cause illness or death in just the same way you can’t eliminate one vaccine with mercury and say no it can’t be mercury.

    The fact is that mercury is shipped to USA vaccine makers in 2008 and in 2008 vaccine makers put it in some vaccines. In a world of mass production and vaccine manufacture by just a few companies who can tell what cock-ups occur? There was a very famous case where animals died by the hundred thousand and the cause was a mix up when the cattle were fed insecticide rather than animal feed. A mistake by the company NOT the farmer’s error. It took something like twenty years to prove that this mistake occurred. In England aluminium was dumped into a drinking water tank and arguably caused many illnesses after; not accepted even today decades later as causing any health issues.

    If industry was indeed 100 per cent idiot proof it would be perfectly possible that every mercury vaccine shipped to China would not end up in the butt of an American child at age one day.

    This leads on to the enormity of adding mercury to Chinese vaccines which coincided with the identical abolition of mercury in the American vaccine for HEP. And indeed as you say in China where autism was almost unheard of in 2000 there is now an epidemic of autism there today and the Chinese autism society dates from the 21st century to reflect the need to study and provide for these children.

    Is autism less where mercury is no longer used? Well children today may escape mercury vaccines at age day one or in the foetus but they are liable to get mercury by mistakes or by later vaccines with mercury and before even of talking age possibly.

    For me a time control starts when supplies and even manufacture of these mercury products is halted. This has YET to happen.

    To date in the USA to repeat a point, mercury is still made and supplied to vaccine companies and some of these manufacturers of mercury did not exist before the 21st century making you wonder how an iffy product can be produced not by less companies than before (the first manufacturer opted out in the 1950’s) but is actually supplied probably from a new company formed in the past few years.

    The abolition of products from the world’s most toxic non radioactive element is long overdue and was demanded by the person who introduced the mercury vaccines to the USA child at age 1 day. His determination to delay the vaccines and withdraw mercury lasted about two weeks. It doesn’t need much thought to realise that external pressure was put on this pivotal guy to renounce his concern for HEP vaccine at one day and the harm of mercury vaccines.

    The loss of ones living and the thought of a cardboard box on Time Square does have some effect?

    Whistle Blowers do exist but to date none except this guy and very few others will put there head over the pulpit. Films are the sole way to fictionalise these factual persons and events.

    Finally if a vaccine can be sold with mercury how can anyone have faith in other additives or the practices advised by people who think they do now everything to prove that vaccines are safe and have nothing to say about causes of illnesses like autism?

    Is there no other way to preserve vaccines than use an 80 years old method? Just imagine the world today driving around in 80 year old cars or planes made 80 years ago? Technology as exemplified by the computer does progress just a little in 80 years. Vaccine makers seem uniquely to be caught in some sort of time warp and some sort of madness when your notion of increasing autism with decreasing mercury can be bolstered by the same eminent and VERY highly paid researchers showing that while filmed to be destroying brain cells the mercury vaccine is actually protective of the infants health and intelligence.

    NO COMMENT!

    John Fryer

  8. mjr256 says:

    We’re not talking about eliminating the mercury from one vaccine but a major mercury purge from many, many vaccines in Scandinavia and Canada in the mid-90’s and from the U.S. in 2001. Since then there has not been any noticeable decline in causes of autism. If you don’t see how this throws the vaccine hypothesis into “when pigs fly” pile of supreme unlikelihood, then I really don’t know how we can have a meaningful conversation.

    Now to me (and I’m not speaking just about y ou here but the broad antivaccination movement), it’s as though the claim is that AIDS is not caused by HIV but rather by eating too many hot fudge sundaes, then when no correlation at all can be found linking the two, broadening the claim to say well maybe some AIDS patients got it from HIV while others still must have gotten it from hot fudge sundaes, while others might have gotten it from eating Cocoa Puffs, ultimately embracing something completely nebulous and unfalsifiable and reducing t he conversation to meaninglessness because at the end of the day it’s still HIV that causes AIDS and none of those other things.

    This analogy illustrates the history of the antivaccination movement as they’ve gone from scapegoat to scapegoat while never accepting being wrong about anything. First it was MMR vaccines (which contain no mercury). Then when that failed to produce any evidence dozens of times, it was the thimerosal in vaccines. Now that that that little chestnut is going the way of the dodo, they’re moving onto aluminum, which is infinitely less plausible an explanation than the previous 2 combined. In a few years, they’ll finally have to move on from aluminum to something else. It never ends.

    No one is claiming that the vaccine industry is 100% perfect or whatever. And this is an unreasonable demand. But there’s a large spectrum between 100% and 0%. This is why every medical study that gets published in a peer-reviewed journal must include error bars. Time and time again, vaccines have proven up to 95% safe, and that’s pretty damned good. But just because it’s not 100%, that’s not a reasonable justification to just make up claims that are not validated by any reasonable evidence.

    China has had autism for as long as everyone else. It just happens to be ruled by a totalitarian government that does not permit a free press and is constantly covering up any information they deem will embarrass the nation, this information was not widely available. And it doesn’t take a genius to figure out why the Chinese government might have been embarrassed about their autism population. If the autism rates suddenly became public information in China in 2000 it’s only because the information was leaked in such a way that the Chinese government was forced to acknowledge it. And yet every antivaccinationist always insists on making this silly argument that shows far more reliance on the data provided by a nation that executed the head of its own food and drug administration just last year because of the tainted food crisis last year over the far, far, far more reliable system that we have in place in our own non-fascist nation.

    Now considering children today actually receive LESS mercury in their vaccines than in the previous generation, so again, considering autism hasn’t shown a dramatic drop to what you think it was before it became big news further hits home the point that mercury has nothing whatsoever to do with autism. And again, what of all the autistic children who have never ever been vaccinated at all?

    I suspect that if this is an issue that you care about that you do more than a few Google searches and stop simply visiting pages that support the beliefs you already have. That you put your faith in a handful of “whistle blowers” as more credible than millions of experts shows an impairment in critical thinking. As does your suggestion that doctors have to know all the information about autism in order to rule out possibilities. Autism is genetic. We’ve found several autism genes already. But we don’t know everything yet. But saying one doesn’t know something when someone doesn’t know something is infinitely better than making something up when they don’t know something. But if you need to be presented with an alternative theory I will now arbitrarily declare that autism is the result of exposure to green cheese from the moon. Have fun trying to prove me wrong on that one.
    And remember, beware of common household table salt; it’s 50% mercury.

  9. John Fryer says:

    Hi MJR

    I have no children or relatives with autism or many other illnesses that may in any shape or form be blamed on vaccines. My family are all up to date with vaccines and in good health BUT:

    They didn’t get a mercury vaccine at age one day.

    They didn’t get a DTP vaccine at 2 months.

    They didn’t get the MMR vaccine but they are vaccinated against measles.

    They don’t get two vaccines at the same time let alone ten at the same time.

    The aim of the anti vaccineers who are in fact pro-safe vaccine believe you should delay vaccines as long as is reasonably safe and never give a vaccine to a child who is only 99 percent fit at the time. You listen and observe for signs of an adverse reaction and don’t just ignore head swelling or persistant crying as being NORMAL.

    If you suffer with all these precautions then yes I would be a true anti-vaccineer if such people ever existed?

    The vaccine industry does in fact admit that nearly every vaccine in the past has been unsafe but that today’s vaccines ARE safe. A strange type of philosphy? We did have a new measles multi vaccine pulled off the market only two or three years ago without proper explanation and of the ancient MMR we now know two out of three were harmful vaccines and admitted as unsafe for use by the vaccine companies and authorities let alone the fight of “anti-vaccineers” to get them stopped as they swathed through families destroying their families. We do know by careful research that mercury WAS in some MMR too. (Ask MERCK!)

    Goodness knows we do need to be protected from dangerous and epidemic illnesses and autism today is an epidemic and a dangerous illness. Are we over-vaccinating and causing a different set of problems? We don’t want polio and diptheria thank you but we dont want progressively weaker children and adults as man takes over the role of yes, genetics in protecting us by the evolutionary process that has worked for the past two million years without bypassing our natural immune systems or without I REPEAT:

    Injecting the worlds most deadly non radioactive element into little babies butts and again by transport mechanism into the brain preferentially and destroying brain cells.

    You might be happy that Sally Clark’s children both had these mercury vaccines and the mother, Sally, got life? But for me it kind of sticks in the throat that the very researchers you say vindicate mercury vaccines as being safe would go to court on oath for sums of money that make them millionaires and say that this woman is a murderer.

    Nothing is cut and dried but mercury in flu vaccines for the old and vulnerable? I’ll take my chances with my partners granddaughter coughing all over me this week thanks!

    With a child that has autism in your family and presumably that child having been vaccinated at age one day with a mercury vaccine I find that your comments on green cheese and assertions that mercury is a constituent of table salt bizarre.

    Better spend your energy, time and money on very simple hair analysis of the child to see the distribution of metals, including mercury, uranium, aluminium and iodine (not a metal) to see if they are inside or outside normal values. All the children I know with if not autism even worse illness do have very abnormal metal content and some are actively treated with that in mind.

    I do find that industry and government can be responsive to people like me without ever admitting in public but may do in private that there are problems.

    A total ban on mercury in vaccines is ESSENTIAL. The partial ban to my mind is to deflect the blame and then eliminate mercury totally when people like you are convinced mercury is may be as those professors say and “prove” actually protective to our children.

    Problem is as you hint; if mercury is only one part of the problem and aluminium as you say may be part too you lurch from one catastrophe to the next.

    ME – antiseptic spraying of hospitals in the 1950’s
    Mad Cow Disease – warble fly treatments compulsory for all cattle regardless of whether there is a fly problem?
    Cot Deaths – phosphorus arsenic and antimony in bedding and clothes?
    Autism – mercury and other toxic metals in vaccines?
    Destruction of sheep – getting phials mixed up with ovine and bovine and wrongly condemning sheep to slaughter when it was cows that were sick and not the sheep?
    AIDS – genetic addition/manipulation/hybridisation of drugs, virus and bacteria into living organisms and mixing the boundaries between plants and animals.
    Breast cancer – early and dangerous forms of the pill.

    The list is endless. But we are not talking “green cheese” we are talking fact that is embarrassing to government and scientists.

    These are just a few of the health issues that may or not be caused by chemicals or manipulations of chemicals causing illness. But who is ever going to prove it without loss of income or worse? And who in power ever wants to admit they are idiots and need to be stripped of their wealth and liberty? Not many!

  10. mjr256 says:

    The antivaccination movement is pro-safe vaccines and pro-vaccine choice like the Intelligent Design movement is pro-“academic freedom,” as in, it’s not at all. This is the latest spin in a campaign fueled by a complete irrational superstition of vaccines that has proven time and time again now to be unmoved by evidence. Vaccines will never be 100%, which at least Gary Null has publicly called for. This is a totally unreasonable demand. This movement has already proven over the last 10 years to keep moving the goalpost in order to be perpetually dissatisfied with a system that was never broken in the first place.

    That is why the larger scientific community takes them no more seriously then one would be expected to take creationists, HIV deniers, and moon landing deniers. And they’ve become so emotionally attached to their false conclusions that they’ve made it impossible to criticize their claims without them perceiving it as they’re critics just being big meanies. Though more often, they just assume all their critics are in on the big conspiracy, which also doesn’t help their case. Now I’ve already explained some of the very clear evidence that mercury is not linked to autism, so by all means design an experiment that you would find convincing.

  11. John Fryer says:

    Hi MJR

    Again some good points but you say I have explained some very clear evidence that mercury is not linked to autism.

    I am sorry but to me there is no clear evidence except your assertion that the two are not linked.

    You did say mercury poisoning leads to mercury caused illness but should be called that and not autism. We do have common ground there. So did you do a challenge test on that member of your family to show that heavy metals are not the cause of the problem? What is happening is that children called autistic that then are proven to be heavy metal poisoned and then cured are not classed as autistic as you rightly say. We have the diagnosis autism rather like cot deaths. When the cause is found which no one, even mercury theorists say is exclusively caused by mercury then they are rediagnosed. Goal post changing is usual in science and even the most obvious things takes hundreds of years maybe to get established. The classic lime juice to prevent scurvy was not something discovered overnight but fought to the line for 75 years. People that took lime on long voyages and were healthy did not persuade many to do the same thing although a trivial thing to do.

    To absolutely remove mercury from vaccines is possible and is easy. But like many things it might just cause problems if there is a sudden down turn in what you and everyone claims is an unstoppable increase?

    Genetics can’t be stopped but genetic susceptibilty to heavy metals can be stopped by removing the source of the heavy metal. Problem is that mercury is not only in vaccines and mercury is not the only substance that can destroy brain cells. We do know that thalidomide caused autism and this is not denied anymore.

    Studies in Denmark to check the work of those that discovered a rise in autism witrh the removal of mercury did in fact get restudied by others which showed the opposite correlation namely that autism fell with removal of mercury vaccines but coincidently picked up a spike of older children that went back to the days when thalidomide was in use in Denmark. This showing the power of the scientific method but also the power of figures to lie. The same results taken on analysis to showtwo opposite conclusions? Something or someone has made an error or worse. Attempts to check which results are correct are not easy. My own attempts to write to the authors or indeed any author tend to stop when they know you are actually checking the accuracy of theri publications and analysis. It is high time that a scientific police force operated to stop fraud in papers and exposed those that do this practice.

    The professor who got double life for Sally Clark was Professor Meadow and his work has never been checked for accuracy though in the scientific world all of his work is now discounted.

    As a cynic I do say that in some fields 95 per cent of scientific papers are rubbish and while this is an obvious exaggeration we do need to take the papers with a pinch of salt.

    A clear finding is rare and the paper of Watson and Crick is one paper that stands out over the past 60 years as short and pivotal. There are however still people around that claim there is not a double helix but a triple helix. Even in a cut and dried example there is still room for doubt and progress.

    And yes when you realise this you do question even things that most people would love to be true. But going to the moon and humans being physically incapable of life outside the earths influence are two competing theories or facts that cant lie side by side. Why dont we go to mars then or even try to go there? As a youngster this was predicted for 2001 by those involved in the space race. We do know that perhaps man could even live there if we could just get there. But that is digressing.

    John Fryer

  12. mjr256 says:

    And that is why fortunately important medical decisions that affect the nation are not put in your hands.

    I never denied autism as a diagnosis and find that position intellectually bankrupt. Autism does indeed exist. So does mercury poisoning. These are 2 entirely different things that happen to both cause neurological damage. And I don’t see how any trained physician worth his or her salt could confuse the 2.

    And apparently, I just heard and reported last night that even David Kirby, the quack who popularized this thimerosal claim in the first place had said at the New Jersey talk that mercury is no longer the “smoking gun.”

    Moving the goalpost does not good science and separates the real science from the pseudoscience. Real science observe a phenomena, then come up with a testable hypothesis to explain it, then test that hypothesis hoping something unexpected happens, then send their findings out for peer-review where others reproduce their results and poke as many holes in the findings as possible, and eventually only the good ideas survive. This does not typically take anywhere near hundreds of years.

    We did remove mercury from most of our vaccines already purely for political reasons, and it turned out to bite us all in the ass. Not only did it not satisfy the antivaccination movement and not only did the non-decrease of autism as a result of it not compel the antivaccination movement including yourself, but instead it just fueled their conspiracy claims. And the implication of the suggestion is that the mercury serves no benefit to the vaccine. It’s there because it has a specific purpose.

    “Unstoppable increase” of what? And by all means cite these amazing studies you claim challenged the Denmark, Sweden, Canada, and U.S. studies. Who conducted the studies? What was the sample size? What was the size of the error bars? etc?

    I suspect that the communications with the authors tend to stop because the authors don’t have time to sit around and explain every minute detail of their research with yet another laymen who refuses to accept evidence. And if you have evidence to support fraud and a massive conspiracy among the evil scientists, take it up with the courts. But I suspect you don’t.

    With regards to going to the moon or Mars, I recommend Phil Plait’s blog, Bad Astronomy. He addresses these issues frequently.

  13. John Fryer says:

    MJR

    The research into autism is not in my hands and I suspect not in yours. The cause of autism is one cause or a variety of causes coming together. For the benefit of those who are ill and may get the correct treatment or to prevent new generations needlessly getting this preventable illness we do need to establish causes. Thalidomide is one unversally accepted cause. If one man made chemical can do this then there is certainty that other chemicals will cause the same illness. It is clearly genetic to the degree that not everyone reacts identically to the same chemical toxins. This is the basis in fact of chemical toxicology which goes back thousands of years and is still being studied today. Susceptibility to nuts is no longer considered nuts.

    Truly genetic conditions do tend to be stable and respond in very precise ways. The bleeding disorder of the British Royal family is one such example. My red-green colour blindness is yet another. Blood incompatibility is another causing but not inevitably causing deaths to the second and later children. This latter only being explained some 70 years ago. Autism does not sit well as purely genetic in any way.

    Autism therefore does not figure as a genetic illness per se. Until the last century and roughly 80 years ago this illness was unknown to the human race as far as we can best tell. Of course there are other problems to the brain and these do go back thousands of years but the specific illness of autism was known to doctors for this time period only. As a teacher of science I only became aware of it myself in the late 1990’s and at the time like you completely discounted vaccines as a cause. Only by studying vaccines or more particularly events such as death to Harry Clark at age 2 months and less than 6 hours after a mercury containing vaccine did I slowly begin to study this cause not for autism but as one of many causes of cot death and often in conjunction with other factors.

    You mention that any doctor worth his salt would know the difference …. If only this was true! The very overturning of the Sally Clark verdict shows that half a dozen of the countries leading doctors got their facts completely wrong. In the event and documented in the book Stolen Innocence by John Batt we see dozens of doctors on one side of the argument and dozens on the other. Sadly the only conclusion we can come to is any doctor worth his salt will not say one way or the other with complete certainty. Simple research into causes of death regularly finds a 33 per cent error. One person in every three has the wrong cause of death on his or her death certificate. My own father has a stroke on his death certificate. The doctor’s comment to his wife was you dont want his body cut up do you? Clearly the cause of death was a complete guess or an educated guess. In fact my father had spent the last day of his life clearing out a shed full of garden chemicals, organophosphates for killing weeds and insects on a very hot day. My father liked to have a weed and insect free garden. My brother helped him. My brother also was taken ill at exactly the same time and although he was in hospital for a week and moved to intensive care he did pull through although he never worked again. This has nothing to do with autism but everything to do with whether scientists and doctors can in fact be fallible or not. One persons life was saved partially but the cause of the accident was never recognised. One died of a stroke and one had a heart attack with the proviso that when he was better he had not had a heart attack. The conclusion was he had shammed an illness sufficent to get entered into intensive care and be moved 100 miles to a new hospital and then shammed illness for the next 20 years of his life.

    The rankling between parties as to what the other party stands for is not good science. David Kirby wrote his book using personal stories and events and was written by a non scientist who did not at first even believe that mercury was the cause. You dont shoot the messenger because you are not happy that every child has been injected toxic elements for the past decade or that your vaccine programme cannot continue if you use mercury free products.

    In any event we are at a loss as to the cause of autism but we are not at a loss to know that mercury compounds must be banned from medical products. No mercury compounds have ever been allowed in any school I taught at for several decades so we are not ignorant of the dangers. Why then is mercury in the most dangerous compounds known to us put in vaccines as at October 2008 with the proviso that it is perfectly OK when decades ago the damage to the brain cells has been known at exactly this concentration if one vaccine is diluted evenly throughout a childs body?

    Finally autism is increasing although mercury in vaccines is decreasing! My grand daughter born in 2001 was examined at age 15 months for autism signs and cleared as negative. No studies were done on my daughter at this age or any age. Clearly the over ardent examination at such a young age would produce a spike or increase of autism. The study I refer to is by a doctor who like you has autism in the family and is seriously interested in finding the real cause of autism and does take ages into consideration. The celebrated Danish study that clears autism as being from mercury does not differentiate ages and is clearly not good science but does protect the vaccine companies. He who pays the piper does indeed call the tune.

    Any proper evaluation does take time. The recent work which does not clear autism as being from mercury did show the thalidomide bump some decades later. Any clear findings on mercury as a cause will take at least a decade after the elimination of mercury and by that I mean the total elimination of organic mercury fropm vaccines. This clock cannot start when mercury is still present in flu vaccine and is claimed to be removed from other vaccines as at todays date of 2008. The removal cannot be complete but at best partial. We have people claiming mercury is not linked to autism when every child still gets either mercury vaccines or vaccines with mercury removed from them. Now is that good science or convenient science for vaccine companies?

    In the first and second world wars many people, innocent people died for their country. The death of citizens is an established fact in war time. Is it also factored into our society as the price to pay for herd immunity? Certainly in the Sally Clark case the death of two boys and the early death of the mother seem to have moved the British Government a fraction a one millimetre only. After claiming hundreds of cases where Professor Meadow testified as a witness only one to my knowledge was ever examined with the result that everything is fine. We are not privy to the exact machinations of government or industry but the total and obstinate refusal to remove copmpletely mercury vaccines and misrepresent mercury vaccines as not being mercury vaccines is bizarre. If cot mattresses can be claimed to have 0 per cent phosphorus why not certificates that our vaccines have0 per cent mercury. If you can do it for mattresses you should be able to do it for vaccines.

    But everything is NOT fine while mercury is in our vaccines in 2008!

    John Fryer

  14. mjr256 says:

    At this point, I feel like we’re talking in circles and I feel we’re just going to have to agree to disagree. As far as I’m aware, there’s no good evidence to support autism being a preventable or curable disorder in the same way that heavy metal poisoning is. We might soon be able to manipulate the genes in the near future and we can certainly work towards changing behavior, but nothing like what Kirby would have us believe. Nor do I think Kirby’s broader and vaguer claims of multiple causes very seriously. This is just another example of these folks contradicting their own past statements of certainty and embracing unfalsifiable claims. This is illustrated beautifully by Orac on his blog: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/10/david_kirby_admits_that_mercury_in_vacci.php

    And through all of this I’ve yet to hear any compelling evidence to link mercury to autism.

  15. John Fryer says:

    Hi Mjr

    So you want to call our debate finished; that’s fine.

    My whole life has been based on science and that is therefore based on fact for the most part and yes experiments.

    Even my beliefs in science encompass “facts” that can’t be entirely true and the answers may never be known.

    Is matter particular or just made up of waves? They can’t both be true but some sort of unhappy liaison is made.

    What is true is there is no other more toxic non radioactive metal than mercury and to have in the past at any rate (which we both agree on) put into children not just everyone in the USA at the age of 1 day often I have to say without the parents even knowing about this (staggering but true as they all sign disclaimers). The very fact that a disclaimer is signed must state something? When I joined the army I had to sign a disclaimer that if I was killed it was for my country and without recourse for any claims on my estate by my survivors. A bit of a shock to know you have absolutely no worth dead! In addition some mothers are injected with mercury vaccines while pregnant as previously noted. The risks can extend even to the mothers let alone a tiny foetus.

    Whatever the problems or even as you seem to claim there is no problem with being injected mercury direct into our bodies bypassing our long term genetic protection from toxic matter there is no point in this process and the fact that attempts have been made to eliminate the mercury used in the preparation of our modern vaccines it cannot be complete elimination and it is still a risk to millions of injected people as I said even today.

    The VAERS system itself lists a quarter of a million adverse events (in mainly just one country alone over less than 20 years with now highly refined and pure vaccines) everyone of which is vehemently denied as being the fault of vaccines. Its not so much putting your head in the sand as shooting yourself with mercury and thousands of other toxic chemicals and watching the marvellous results of our genetics keeping us fit and yes giving us temporary protection from illnesses some of which are for the most part trivial.

    Vaccines survive to date despite and not because of their risks which do not always result in prohylaxis but sometimes result in anaphylaxis which can manifest as anything up to and including sudden death.

    This is more of a fact than what matter is made up of.

    You quote ORAC who is known to be paid high sums of money from the vaccine industry to promote vaccines and scoff at those that deny they are always good for us.
    In addition he hides behiond a name and might as easily and more approropriately and accurately have called himself Faust, Dante or Armageddon.

    I would just quote more reputable persons lets say Nobel Prize winners and not those of today who get there prize for some obscure area of science but those of the like of Professor Charles Richet whose work on anaphylaxis has been reproduced by thousands of later researchers and NEVER denied or disproved.

    Put simply one vaccine works but the second vaccine naturally and rarely has an anaphylactic effect and is liable to cause sudden death.

    Today we can’t deny this and we can save or attempt to save those normally but rarely affected by a GOOD vaccine. Today the anaphylactic event is grudgingly admitted but in an ever decreasing time frame.

    Adding mercury to vaccines does not eliminate this danger but just adds to it.

    With vaccinations everyone is put into one category and modern medicine acts on those people as if they were precisely engineered and all identical and all responded identically. We are not all identical and this is at the root of the problem. Wherever you look today in medicine there are huge risks taken and often needlessly.

    One of the very first vaccines was against TB. Today despite billions of injections it appears that today there is more TB than ever before. Today, few countries vaccinate against TB. Small pox vaccines did manage to get rid of the illness but man keeps the illness to use again in times of war possibly. Hardly comforting?

    With this sad fact I leave the debate as you say we are going round in circles. When I was young I did know one person who had had smallpox and didn’t die but was glad of the vaccine as it is easy to see the harm it does.

    What will happen if warfare does release this carefully guarded source of smallpox which resides in the USA and is released to a world now becoming less resistant to this illness?

    And what does it state about the condition and mentality of man today? Bearing in mind despite your denial:

    Mercury is in millions of USA vaccines in 2008 but the USA scientists can easily claim mercury is out of vaccines but the autism increases.

    I think my first film I saw got it exactly right about the USA mentality.

    Its a MAD MAD MAD WORLD.

    And the unversal and often compulsory vaccination of the masses against their will is compounded more and more by those who are knowledgeable taking more and more care over what vaccines to have and when. Many doctors write each notes to say they have been injected themselves when in fact the phial goes in the bin. Why lie like this?

    The virtual sole case which succeeded to get harm admitted from a vaccine was not bizarrely but as would be expected from a doctor whose life was to promote all vaccines at any age and in any quantity to anyopne.

    The ordinary person has two chances of succeeding to prove vaccine harm. One is no chance and the other is as for Sally Clark. You are sentenced to spend double your life in prison after the best medical service in the world had injected him with our safest DTP mercury containing vaccine to keep this lad healthy only 6 hours before you strangled, shook or killed him in some unknown method repeated exactly the same by more than one million other wicked mothers around the world.

    Take her down!

    John Fryer

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